Bringing Humanity To Your Insanity - Steve Wunch Episode 9

Bringing Humanity To Your Insanity

Episode 10- JuvoHub Podcast

Our Special Guest: Steve Wunch

Steve Wunch is a Regional VP of Sales for Knock, a SaaS technology platform that provides the productivity and business intelligence solutions needed to maximize occupancy, rent growth, and customer satisfaction for multifamily communities across the nation. Steve is also a professional facilitator in leadership, sales, and customer service. He is a national speaker, and freelance consultant who has worked with multifamily companies to enhance, improve, and train organizations to improve performance. He began his career in multifamily over 25 years ago as a leasing consultant, assistant manager, community manager, and since has been in various training and support roles.

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Show Highlights

Notes from the host:

In this episode, I was truly inspired by the complete next level of emotional intelligence in Steve Wunch. The ability to take life’s experiences and use them to teach not only himself but to live by the lessons that are taught is absolutely extraordinary. Even while the level of insanity is at an all-time high right now, Steve exemplifies humanity every day and every moment. Enjoy the show. Jonathan Saar ~~ Market Me Social.

Emotional Intelligence Exemplified

Listen to Steve as he shares some personal life experiences and ones that he has witnessed that will just make you say “WOW”. To Steve, emotional intelligence is a daily education assignment. It’s not just a buzz phrase but it’s an opportunity to absorb what’s around us, learn, and apply.

Some questions we discussed:

  • You have been in the industry for some time. How did you get into the industry and training specifically?
  • What are some tips for industry speakers and trainers?
  • What are some pain points that you have gone through?You have a class called – Bringing Humanity To Your Insanity – Let’s talk about it

What one actionable tip could you share that has served you well as an educator?

Save the Drama for your Mama which means leave it in the car. And the second thing is just to remind yourself why you’re here. The only reason Multifamily professionals have their profession is because there are people in this world who have a basic human need, which is a home.

Steve Wunch – RVP of Sales Knock

If you enjoyed this episode be sure to check out:

Jonathan Saar: Hello, everyone. Just before we get into our show, I wanted to tell you a little bit about our sponsor REAL-HR a Higginbotham company. I have known their leadership team for many years now, and I am always impressed with the level of dedication that they have towards their clients. It is phenomenal. They work a lot with human resource departments within the property management space, so if you have questions or needs involving employee benefits, payroll administration, employee screening, and more, they are the ones to talk to. And they are under the umbrella of their parent company, which is Higginbotham. And they have a whole other level of services related to insurance needs and benefits, so definitely check them out and see it for yourself. And of course, there'll be a link to their site in our show notes, so a big, big, huge Juvo, thank you to our sponsor. Without further ado, let's get into today's episode.
Welcome everyone to episode 10 of the JuvoHub podcast. Today we have with us, Steve Wunch from Knock. He's an account executive for Knock, and we are going to be talking about Bringing Humanity to Your Insanity. Just before we get into our discussion on what that is, Steve's company is a software as a solutions technology platform that provides the productivity and business intelligence solutions needed to maximize occupancy, rent growth, and customer satisfaction for Multifamily communities across the nation. Steve is also a professional facilitator in leadership sales and customer service. He is a national speaker and a freelance consultant who has worked with Multifamily companies to enhance, improve, and train organizations to improve their performance. He began his career in Multifamily over 25 years ago as a leasing consultant, assistant manager, community manager, and since has been in several training and support roles. And I had the privilege of meeting you Steve a few years ago.
I apologize for getting a little tongue tied there a moment ago.

Steve Wunch: That's okay.

Jonathan Saar: So grateful to have you on the show with us.

Steve Wunch: Thanks, Jonathan. I'm pleased to be here. I appreciate the opportunity to share my experience and my perspective with your audiences.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. Yeah. We're going to dive into that, especially when you and I were talking about this show that we're going to record. Your keynote session, Bringing Humanity to Your Insanity and just the title itself is extremely compelling. And one of the ever reaching challenges that we have within our industry and industries all over of just trying to maintain a human element, despite all the technology and other circumstances that we're faced with each and every day before. But before we get into that, just a couple of things. Just tell us about Knock. What is it? And how did you come to work for them? Give us a two minute speech on what you're doing right now my friend.

Steve Wunch: You bet, so Knock actually started... Our founders, Tom and Dimitri were frustrated renters. They were relocating cross country multiple times with their jobs in the finance sector and just found it difficult to get responses from managers and property leasing consultants when they were looking for their new home. And so they actually interviewed folks in those roles and said why is it so hard? And through those focus groups and the insights that they gained, they said, you know what, we've got an opportunity here. And so Knocks started out as a CRM, a customer relationship management platform, but really what we've become is a performance management partner. We are the front office of the future, so everything that you need to do in terms of acquiring, converting, and retaining a customer happens on the Knock platform. But it's way more than just a CRM.
We have a new Knock analytics called Insights that helps a regional manager, or a marketing director, or training director in one quick snapshot, take a look at performance and then provide coaching and to be able to be a little bit more proactive in their approach to managing their sales. If I'd had this, when I was on the operation side, Jonathan, I would have been a very happy camper.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah.

Steve Wunch: I didn't often have access to the metrics that I needed in terms of performance support for sales and Knock really no pun intended knocks it out of the park with what they provide their customers.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah, no, that's fantastic. Yeah. And so critical. We teach this, I know you teach it. I've been in class at classes and have also had my own comments in some classes about how important it is to be able to convert leads and in training how much it's involved in that whole process. But it's so cool to know that there's tools out there that just help our professionals that make their job easier. Very, very cool. We'll have to sidebar and you have to give me a little tour of that at some point.

Steve Wunch: I would be glad to.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah.

Steve Wunch: And then the cool thing too, that we've done is we've really made a concerted and intentional effort to make it what we call Fisher Price easy, so it's so easy to use, it's not even funny.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah, no, that's cool. That's definitely a pain point typically within our industry is, Oh, no technology, and you're about ready to pass out with another solution that's out there. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah, so everybody make sure... The link will be in the show notes, check Knock out. But let's dive in to you a little bit more my friend.

Steve Wunch: Yeah.

Jonathan Saar: You've been in the industry for some time and just thinking about the perspective of those who are listening to this show, we may have students listening, we may have veterans listening. We have all different types of job titles and all of us know how important it is to kind of just keep progressing in our craft. Whatever our craft is in the industry. How do we continue to educate ourselves? Tell me a little bit about how did you get into industry and what was the story or the path that put you into like the training profession?

Steve Wunch: Sure. Okay. I got started in leasing as a resident. I actually back in the day, lived at an Archstone community in Atlanta. And I actually had just come back from a gig singing on a cruise ship and my roommate had skipped out on me, so I went down to the leasing office to tell the manager, Hey, look, I'm going to be late with my rent. I don't have a job. I don't know what I'm going to do. And she said, Hey, you should come work for us. I think you'd be a great leasing consultant. And that was sort of the introduction to property management there.

Jonathan Saar: Wow.

Steve Wunch: And then honestly, to become a trainer, it was more of just being a good participant. I know folks in the audience will go to class and sometimes when they find out they've been enrolled in a training class, they're like, Oh, please, shoot me in the head. Eight hours of being talked at, and it's kind of boring.
I was privileged to have the VP of training at Archstone as my facilitator for a sales workshop. And I participated well, I guess maybe I'm a frustrated actor, but I was a good role play participant, and I raised my hand to answer questions, and I was just engaged in the learning process. And through that experience, she said you showed up so good in class. I'd really like to see what you might look like in front of the classroom. And that was the beginning of my training career, that was in 1999.

Jonathan Saar: That is sweet. Yeah. What a great story. Oh man. And so that's been I'm assuming more or less your passion ever since. Since it seems like the majority of your career in one way or another, you've always been an educator in one form or fashion, is that correct?

Steve Wunch: That's correct, yep. I've either been a training director, a training manager, a VP of training or learning and development. And even with Knock, as an account rep or a salesperson, really it's helping my customers learn the value of Knock, how to navigate the product in an easy way, and then how to take what you're getting from the platform to improve your sales performance. And I get the opportunity to give feedback around how leasing consultants are responding to leads. And I do drop-ins on regional manager meetings and assistant manager meetings just to give them some insight into my history with sales in the Multifamily space and how to do that more effectively.

Jonathan Saar: Right, right. That's awesome. And it's such a recurring theme with all the people I've met over the years Steve. Is the more open we are to how a change in circumstances can teach us the better we wind up doing with whatever those circumstances may be, you know?

Steve Wunch: Yeah.

Jonathan Saar: It's all a matter of what you make out of what's given you, right.

Steve Wunch: That's for sure. And change is sometimes self-imposed and a lot of times in the Multifamily space, Jonathan, change is actually thrust upon you.

Jonathan Saar: Yes.

Steve Wunch: And especially with what we've just recently gone through with this whole COVID-19, and the lockdown, and our change in our approach to serving our customers. And at the end of the day, we're here to help somebody find a home. And I think for me, that's kind of been my North star or my guiding principle. And I want to show up no matter how I do it, whether it's on a virtual call or a face to face interaction with a customer, or a repeat visit, or even a resident interaction. I know the only reason I'm in that seat is because there are people out there looking for a home and they chose us. And I want to make sure that I handle that situation with care.
A lot of my humanity platform is about there's a person on the other end of everything we do in this space. On the backside of a three day notice, on the backside of a trash violation. There's a person on the other side of that equation and we don't know what their circumstances are, and we don't know what's going on in their lives. And so I just really want to encourage people with this bringing humanity idea to step back for a second and just say, how can I handle this and be a human about it? I know you're late with your rent. I'd hate for you to get a late rent notice posted to your door and your neighbors are going to see it. Could you jump on the portal and make your payment real quick? That's a two minute effort on the behalf of the office team that could have a really great return on investment for the relationship that you're building and sustaining with that customer.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. That's awesome.

Steve Wunch: And that's one example of how we can do that.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah.

Steve Wunch: Sorry.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah, no, no, no, no, it's good. I love it. And so let's dive into it. You brought it up. I know this is one of your keynote sessions Bringing Humanity to Your Insanity. Besides the story that you just shared, what else kind of like anything else that inspired you to kind of put this topic together, any other experiences? Just give me more, what else you got? It sounds like such an amazing topic that I need to be at, so I'd love to hear more.

Steve Wunch: Yeah. The real prompter for this, the creation of this platform was my 86 year old mom lives with me. And when my dad passed away almost three years ago, I began thinking, her living experience is in an evolutionary path and getting her to move from a home she's lived in for 42 years. First of all, that was scary as heck for her. And then some of the folks that we encountered during our Multifamily search just didn't really seem to be that happy to help. And for her this is a traumatic thing and I wanted it to be as seamless and easy as possible. I actually started my search a year before we actually made the move, so I was looking for the right place, the right people. And sometimes people would tell a story.
Like I had a leasing consultant and tell a story that she lived in a home prior to our encounter with her. And she said yeah, I woke up one morning with duct tape on my mouth and a gun pointed at my head. And I was the victim of a home invasion. Well, I know her attempt was to tell my mom Multifamily living is a completely different experience and you're not going to have to face hopefully things like that, trying to make that connection. But I was like, Oh my Lord, can we find a different way to tell that story? Because it scared the crap out of my mom.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. I was going to say that sounds a little strong.

Steve Wunch: Yeah. Yeah. Then my mom goes back to her home where she was living alone at the time. And needless to say, I'm sure she was a little bit worried, but I just think if we can re remember that people that are walking through our doors, or the people that are signing up for virtual tours right now, they're going through all kinds of stuff that we have no idea about. And you either choose to make a positive difference in somebody's life at that moment. Or you can just go through the motions and maybe you'll be lucky enough if you do that to make the right impression. But for the folks that are out there that follow that North star that I do in terms of that I'm only here because they're looking for a place to live and that's my motivation. That's been my inspiration for leadership and training and development for the last 25 years, Jonathan.
Making sure folks understand how important they are in that process, making sure that the leasing teams know what a difference they're making in the lives of the folks that are walking through their doors. I've seen them step up to the plate multiple times during this COVID-19 period. And it's amazing to see folks going the extra mile and I love that. And that's what it's about at the end of the day, that human element.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah.

Steve Wunch: They're going to forget what you did, they're going to forget what you said, they're going to forget what platform or ILS they were looking for an apartment on, but they're never going to forget how you make them feel. And I think that shapes everything we do from this day forward, if we allow it to.

Jonathan Saar: Absolutely, absolutely. That's fantastic. And a couple of things you said just kind of triggered... I remember one class I was teaching and it was a bunch of assistant managers, community managers, leasing professionals. And we got on this very similar, like what's the prospect journey, what's the resident journey, what happens?

Steve Wunch: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jonathan Saar: And as we got through that conversation, I'm like just look at your reviews as an example, what are the reviews about for your property? It's very rare that you see reviews for the beautiful sign that's out front or anything along that. The reviews are there about the people that are there. The manager that helped me, and the maintenance person, the leasing person, so I love it. That's so great. And it becomes a challenge sometimes to get out of the rut of we have paperwork, we have policies, we have the procedures, here's your application-

Steve Wunch: The day to day.

Jonathan Saar: Right, right. And stop and look at that person, like you said, so I love it. That is great.

Steve Wunch: Yeah.

Jonathan Saar: As part of that and I think you kind of touched on this a bit. What does it take like on a... Bring it right down to the basics. I need to educate myself on how I can not be so stuck in the formality of connecting with my customers and my residents. What are your tips? What has helped you, that you would maybe help someone who's just new on this journey, or even for all of us who've been on it for a bit. What would be some tips you would share?

Steve Wunch: You've got to adjust your perspective honestly, and you've got to think of it... For those of you that are a student, there's a lot of universities now I know Georgia Tech and University of Georgia, they've got a program. Virginia Tech has a program in property management where you can actually get a degree now. And learning all about the way that Multifamily works and the processes and the policies. That's one of your job for sure. And you really want to be smart and attentive and learn all that you can, and keep yourself up to speed when things change because policies and procedures do change over time. But I do think if you just once in a while, just take a step back and think about all the lives that you're influencing and having an impact on, and it's from anything...
I remember when the bus used to let outside the leasing office and we'd go hide the candy, because we didn't want the kids to come in and steal it all. I thought what a crotchety old man approach to a relationship with a child, who's just as important as their parents and their experience matters. And somebody who asks the same question over and over. Well they're not dumb, they're giving you some buying signals. And I think our perception gets clouded because the day to day grind really takes over. And I think as a team, sit back and talk about the lives of the residents that you've influenced. Talk about the wins that you've had. When folks say yes to the dress and they sign a lease. What was it about that experience that turned them around the corner to say yes to you versus your competition?
And I'll bet you nine times out of 10, Jonathan, it's going to come down to, it was the person, it was you and the way you treated them, the questions that you asked, and the time that you spent that made them choose you over their competition.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah.

Steve Wunch: And I've had a lot of folks in my days, working at assets that are 20, 30 years old, they're not the newest, flashiest and I tell people it's not all about granite, and stainless, and high rise, and big amenity spaces. It's about the experience. The customer experience matters to folks decision. And then you want to sustain the experience. It can't just be a I got you at the sale and now be warm, and be fed, and be on your way. You have to extend that service into the relationship that you want to continue with that resident through their tenure with you. But again, it's really taking a second as a person, looking at the lives coming through your door and saying, how can I have a positive influence? Whether they say yes to me or not? How can I make a difference in that person's experience with me right now today?

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. That is awesome, man.

Steve Wunch: Hopefully that answers your question.

Jonathan Saar: Oh no, it does not. And I mean the-

Steve Wunch: Feel free to edit more.

Jonathan Saar: I'm sort of almost speechless Which is difficult for me to do on a podcast, but I mean, it's just... That's the aspiration, right? I mean, and every one of us wake up and it's a daily item, I think. It's not well, we will go to a session. We'll listen to your session, we'll listen to anybody who talks maybe about emotional intelligence and we're good to go. To me, it's a daily education assignment, we have to give ourselves on how we're going to deal with people. And we have to wake up with that mindset and remember. Like everything that you've just shared, Steve. Just, okay, you were going to have, we have people of all diversities, all different temperaments, all different backgrounds. And just because a personality may rub us the wrong way when we're in that leasing office. It's no excuse to label that particular individual inside, if that makes sense.

Steve Wunch: Yeah. And so often, as an industry, Jonathan, we manage to that exception. It's that one jerk. And then that becomes the lens that we see every customer through sometimes.

Jonathan Saar: Right.

Steve Wunch: And I use the 90/10 rule when it comes to folks like that 90% of their issues are with them, 10% of it has to do with me in our current situation. And that really kind of helps to reset my view on the conversation. You mentioned emotional intelligence and I think about a leasing consultant in South Florida when I was working with Equity Residential down there, she had a guy come in the office and he was just being a jerk, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And she said, are you all right? And he said, what do you mean? And she said, well, I just met you like two seconds ago and you've been nothing but mean to me. And I'm not sure what I did to deserve this. And he was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. He said, I was on the phone with my ex in the parking lot and she just gets me twisted. And I'm so sorry.
That's using your emotional intelligence and that took some guts to do on her part.

Jonathan Saar: Yes.

Steve Wunch: But you know, we have to remember, it's not about us. Moving is not fun, no matter how excited you are about it. And when people are looking for an apartment, there's a whole lot of mishegoss going on, that's driving that need to find a new place to live, right.

Jonathan Saar: Yes.

Steve Wunch: Control what you can control, which is yourself. You can't control anything else. The world is spinning out of control. But the one thing you can control is the choices you make, the attitudes you bring with you, and how you show up every day when it comes to working with your team and serving your customers.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. Fantastic.

Steve Wunch: Oops.

Jonathan Saar: Kudos to that leasing professional. That's a great story. And I'm sure it must have made you proud too, to be able to witness something-

Steve Wunch: It did.

Jonathan Saar: And be like, wow, well done.

Steve Wunch: Yeah.

Jonathan Saar: Well done. Oh, that's cool.

Steve Wunch: Yeah. I mean, and she couldn't have told you it was emotional intelligence. She wouldn't have put that tag on it, but that emotional intelligence in a nutshell, it's about self awareness and self management, so I know how I feel and I'm going to keep control of my feelings. And then it's about social awareness and relationship management. If you see it happening, either choose to call the elephant in the room what it is, or choose to go the high road and just ignore it and be nice. But she made that choice to act on what she felt. And it ended up... She'd had a much more cordial, 30, 45 minute tour with that guy than she would have had she not chosen to do that. I have to give her props. Gina, if you're listening, that's you girl.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. Yeah. We'll need to find out if we can tag her somehow and say, Hey, you need to listen to this podcast. Because we have a great story that Steve is talking about. Yeah. Yeah. See if you can track her down. That would be awesome, man.

Steve Wunch: I will.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah, so you and I were talking before the show and we have to include this. When you've given this session, Bringing Humanity to Your Insanity and you dressed up as a certain character and you kind of concluded it in a certain way. Who is the character? Why? And what was the impact?

Steve Wunch: Sure, so the AAMD, Apartment Association of Metro Denver asked me to come and do the morning keynote for their TechCon. And I always try to be memorable, so I dressed like Data from Star Trek, so those Trekkies that are out there in the audience your cosplay moment has arrived. Yellow contacts, white makeup, the whole outfit. I even had a tri-quarter that worked and they called me to the bridge during my speech. And I was like, I'm on the holodeck talking to some friends right now. I'll be right there. But I talked about all these different technology platforms that we're able to use everything from, the Google assistant to a chat bot, which is something that Knock is very much a part of that realm, to the Google translator. And I ended my speech with a video of a lady at a hotel, and a gentleman walks up to the front desk and he speaks to her in Spanish.
And she's like, Oh gosh, I don't speak Spanish. Let's use the Google translator. And she says, Google translate my conversation. And Google says, what language? And she says Spanish. Well, she could have told the guy, Hey, just go ahead and talk to the machine. She'll interpret for you, but she's continued to be engaged in that exchange. How can I help you? She said, and then the translator says, and he responds. And then she answers and she stayed engaged, made eye contact, smiled, nodded her head, made some gestures to point where she was giving him directions too, so she remained human in that interchange and it was helpful, understanding. I'm going to forget the M and A and the N. Any way I used an acronym around how regardless of what tech you're using, you still have to have that human element-

Jonathan Saar: Right.

Steve Wunch: When it comes to providing that experience for your customers. And you know Data in Star Trek, he's the most advanced form of artificial intelligence in the universe. And if you watch episodes, you'll see that the only thing he wants is to be human.

Jonathan Saar: Right.

Steve Wunch: And I think that speaks a powerful message to us that no matter what kind of technology we've got in place, we can't just set it and forget it. There's a person at the end of the experience that deserves human interaction, an understanding, helpful, knowledgeable, involved person who can really serve them at this time of need in their life, in such a way that it matters to that human experience that we all miss so much now that we're separated from one another.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, you can see the clip or correct me Steve if it's the full session, but on, we can be able to see some excerpts of that particular class. Is that correct?

Steve Wunch: Yeah. The TechCon, the whole thing is there, you can't see some of the videos that I used during the speech, but I think you'd get the gist of it.

Jonathan Saar: Right, right. Yeah. Definitely check that out. What an amazing Steve, you brought to us today and a lot of the human appeal, so it definitely fits in line with your session and how you've carried yourself throughout your career as an individual, as a professional, and working with various companies. Really, really appreciate having you on. What an emotional impact. I'm sure all of our listeners thinking about what they can do better. Where can we improve in making that human connection? And how can we stop the... As you word it stop the insanity, which can be technology, it can be so many different things. And just look someone in the eye, talk to them, find out what they need and go the extra mile for them. Really, really, really awesome to have you on the show today. But before we close out, I always ask all of my guests just to share with our audience. What's your... If you have one, maybe two actionable tip or tips that you can share that has always served you well as an educator?

Steve Wunch: Save the Drama for your Mama which means leave it in the car. Whether you're a leasing consultant, a property manager, someone at the corporate support team, whatever happened in your morning, leave it in the car. It will be waiting for you gladly when the day ends, but you have the opportunity to walk through the door of your office to wipe the slate clean and to start your day fresh. And I know it's hard. It takes a lot of practice and I've not been perfect at it, but it does make a difference. And the second thing is just to remind yourself why you're here. The only reason Multifamily professionals have their profession is because there are people in this world who have a basic human need, which is a home.
And you can either show up and make a difference positively in the life of that person. Or you can do your job and just go through the motions and get by. But what kind of message does that send to that person? I was raised with the thought that a good name is better than great riches and that will always be what motivates me.

Jonathan Saar: Love it. Love it, love it. That is awesome. Two great tips, ladies and gentlemen. We'll definitely include them and highlight those in the show notes for everyone. For all of our listeners, be sure to check out if you want to learn a little bit more about him, or request for him to come and speak for you, provide some sessions for your organization, definitely check him out, check out the company that he works with And again, those will be in the show notes. Any other ways, Steve you'd like for people to connect with you, any social sites or anything along that line?

Steve Wunch: I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook. Feel free to reach out and friend request me or connect with me on LinkedIn. I use those channels often to send messages and encourage people. Or you can just email me or My speaking business is the outlook address. And then of course my Knock job is the But I'm always happy to help in any way that I can to our Multifamily family out there. If you've got a question, or concern, or a need, don't hesitate to reach out. It doesn't have to be related to anything I'm doing at the time. I'm just happy to help whenever I can.

Jonathan Saar: Yeah. Beautiful. And I can vouch for that for all of our listeners. When I first met you, Steve, instantly I thought, man, I came home and I told my wife, I met Steve. And that was it. I mean, I don't know what else to say. It was just like your approach, your demeanor, your personality, I connected with you instantly. And I've been so grateful that we've kept in touch even though our careers have changed, off and on throughout the years. It's great to have you on the show today. And I think I also speak for everyone, just an impactful podcast today. Just-

Steve Wunch: Thanks. I really appreciate that.

Jonathan Saar: A lot for us to really to chew on, resonate, and put into applications. Again, thank you so much, Steve, for being here. This is episode 10 ladies and gentlemen Bringing Humanity to Your Insanity. And if you haven't done so already, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast. You can do that in any of your favorite podcast apps, such as iTunes, Stitcher, iHeart, and others. You can check that out on If you'd like to see more options to subscribe to the podcast. And if you have a moment, please give us a review. We do really, really appreciate that. Another thank you again to our sponsor REAL-HR Higginbotham we appreciate their support of this podcast. Thank you everyone for being here. We look forward to seeing you and connecting with you on our next episode.